From: Tom Richardson DICKSONT@CITADEL.EDU DICKSONT@CITADEL.BITNET at Philmont 89:716J, 93:706C Date: September 1993 Re: Philmont Trek Information Soon after my trail report to the list in July 1993, a fellow SCOUTS-L member asked for our handouts, etc., as models for his troop's expediton. I forwarded a short reply but indicated that I would put things together for posting in the list archive. Initial comments: recent activity (today is 30 Aug 93) on the list indicates that 1994 treks are full. It can not be emphasized too much that Philmont requires advance planning, that you need to get your RESERVATION in no less than fifteen months in advance. Note that the RESERVATION is for a contingent slot and an estimate of the number of crews. Actual numbers of participants and the itinery comes in the winter/spring before you attend. At the leaders meeting on arrival evening, it was stated that the reservation process will be different for 1995 and subsequent years. That rather than phoning in, one must submit a postcard (to be obtained in advance from Philmont) with a selection of acceptable start dates and that assignments would be made from this. Evidently "we" jammed the telephone switch in Cimmaron so badly that the bank could not get a line for its cash transfer actions! (It is an OLD switch.) Items in this file: (items are separated by * * *) 1. Information sheet for a round-table presentation. 2. Initial contact letter to Scouts and Families (Win 1992 for Sum 1993) 3. Five page letter to deposited participants . . . see end of package for notes on dual-troop header! NOTE: custom crew tee-shirts and hooded sweatshirt is (1) our way of having a UNIFORM on the trail and (2) especially for the sweatshirt that the thing will do the job intended - - one individual (somehow) substituted a hoodless one (weight?) at shakedown and fortunately lived to regret it! TO BE ISSUED items are indicated, these are included in the fee we charge and ensure that the Scout will have appropriate equipment. There are other items that could be included on such a system (and with an adjustment to the cost!) 4. Spring information sheet to participants about various details. 5. Letter from female advisor to female youth participants 6. Assorted "loose items" abstacted from various newsletters during the 1989 expedition 7. e-mail transcripts of July 1993 which lead to this posting 8. Comments on 1993 expedition * * * (1) Thinking, etc., for a Philmont Expeditition Spring 1990, revised Summer 1991 Recommended Qualifications: 1. Scouts need to be First Class rank and age 14 before 1 July, year of trip. Although Philmont only requires age 13 before 1 January, year of trip, you will find that age 13 can be too young (strength, size, maturity, etc.); the additional six months will give the young Scout an added edge. So long as you stay within (tighter than) the Philmont regulations, you can vary this to suit your particular situation. 2. The MINIMUM preparation should include completion of the backpacking merit badge (a possible exception is the long backpack -- Philmont could be the opportunity for that requirement!). 3. All participants, youth and adult, need to participate in several shake-down backpack trips during the spring immediately before the trip. Even experienced packers will loose their edge -- new equipment needs to be broken in, old equipment needs to be verified. Mechanical Details: 1. You must make your reservation no later than 1 April of the year before you plan to attend. Yes, a 15 month lead time is needed -- you don't realize how popular Philmont is! Note: the reservation is not the final establishment of itinery, etc., just a slot in the machinery and a modest financial committment. 2. Costs: Troop 700 in Summer 1989 operated with the following budget. Total fee charged $644.00 ------ Philmont fee 205.00 Airplane Fare 278.00 Charleston to Denver (round trip) Bus Fare 53.85 Denver to Cimmaron (round trip) Sweat & Tee shirts, Carry-on bag 47.17 including silkscreening Crew Equipment 15.41 water jugs, first aid stuff, etc Food & lodging enroute 26.00 ------ Actual Cost 625.43 ====== "Surplus" 18.57 returned to families 3. Future projections: anticipate a marked increase in the transportation cost, the rest will probably be subject only to "normal" inflation. An area troop had a 1991 cost of $800, a 1993 expedition is being estimated (in Summer 1991) at $1000. 4. You can always refund excess fees (after you are home!), it is very difficult to raise the amount you charge the families! 5. Allow the equivalent of a committee member's job to carry this project through. 6. Resource individuals: Margaret Zedan and Tom Richardson, phone number and address given * * * (2) Troop 700 -- Dorchester Presbyterian Church September 1991 To: Interested and Eligible Scouts From: Troop 700 Re: Philmont in 1993 We are considering a Philmont expedition in the summer of 1993 (late June - early July). The minimum qualifications are attainment of First Class rank and age 13 before 1 January 1993. In addition, you will need to have adequately prepared yourself by successfully participating in the several shake-down backpack trips we will be holding over the next two years. Even if you already have the Backpacking merit badge, you will need to "do it again" simply for the sake of keeping your edge. We anticipate a total cost of $1000 per participant; the greater part of this will be for transportation. For comparison purposes, our final 1989 Philmont budget (per person, youth and adult) was: Total fee charged $644.00 ------ Philmont fee 205.00 Airplane Fare 278.00 Charleston to Denver (round trip) Bus Fare 53.85 Denver to Cimmaron (round trip) Shirts, Carry-on bag 47.17 including silkscreening Crew Equipment 15.41 water jugs, first aid stuff, etc Food & lodging enroute 26.00 ------ Actual Cost 625.43 ====== "Surplus" 18.57 returned to families We anticipate a marked increase in the transportation cost, the rest will probably be subject only to "normal" inflation. (A 1991 trek from this area cost roughly $800.00 per participant.) If you are interested (and will meet the age/rank requirements), please complete and return the attached reservation form and a non-refundable $20 deposit before 1 April 1992. This might seem like a very long lead time but we must make reservations for the summer of 1993 on 1 Apr 1992 so that we can ensure the desired time slot. If there is insufficient interest, we will return your deposit or credit it towards your 1992 summer camp fee. If crew size must be limited, earlier responses and older Scouts will be given preference. Note: If there are enough interested and qualified adults, two crews could be constructed and two treks of differing difficulty organized! ================================================================= Scout ___________________________ is interested in going to Philmont in the summer of 1993. He will be age 13 and will have earned First Class rank on or before 1 January 1993. A non- refundable deposit of $20.00 is attached. Parent\Guardian ___________________________ phone ______________ address ___________________________________ ___________________________________ === Note: the deposit is now at least $25.00 * * * (3) Troop 700 -- Dorchester Presbyterian Church Troop 29 --North Barrington Elementary Philmont 1993 1. 5 - 18 Jul 1993: These are our dates at Philmont: we will arrive Monday evening; process in on Tuesday morning; enjoy Base Camp on Tuesday afternoon; hit the trail Wednesday morning; come off the trail Saturday (ten days later); and on Sunday morning depart. 2. Actual dates: Reserve Friday, 2 Jul 1993 to Thursday, 22 Jul 1993 for the actual time we are traveling and at Philmont. Troop 700: these dates apply if we take the train. Flying is a possibility . . . Troop 29: if we take the train, we would leave on Sunday, 4 Jul 93 and return on Monday 19 Jul 93. The choice of fly or train will depend on how prices look in late 1992 when we must firm committments. 3. You must be a First Class Scout and at least 14 years old by 1 Jun 1993. 4. You must participate in the shakedown backpacking trips . . . see below. 5. Estimated per person total cost: Troop 700: $775.00; Troop 29: $705.00 Troop 700 Troop 29 Philmont: 265.00 265.00 Transportation: 300.00 260.00 Food, Lodging enroute: 100.00 70.00 Crew Equipment: 80.00 80.00 Personal Spending: 30.00 30.00 Any surplus will be refunded to the families . . . 5. Payment schedule, checks to "Troop 700", given to M. Zedan by: 21 Jul 92: 25.00 firm deposit 25.00 15 Nov 92: 300.00 260.00 15 Feb 93: 210.00 195.00 15 Apr 93: 210.00 195.00 2 Jul 93: 30.00 spending money 30.00 in your pocket! Note: This is a $65.00 per month budgeting between now and April 1993! 6. Other items: 1) one complete class-A Scout Uniform 2) two troop tee-shirts 3) see attached equipment list 7. Physical Conditioning: we will be hiking and camping over elevations ranging from 6000 to 12500 feet. You will need to prepare yourself for the trek. We will be having a series of training hikes and such during the winter and spring. It is essential that you attend these. Things you can do on your own include aerobic exercise such as jogging or running flights of stairs (stadium bleachers!) and hiking with a loaded pack. Speed is not essential; regular exercise is. Swimming and bicycling are also good. Each troop will be conducting its program . . . details on these will be provided by the respective crew advisors. Troop 700 -- Dorchester Presbyterian Church Troop 29 -- North Barrington Elementary Philmont 1993 -- Page Two -- EQUIPMENT NO. REQ'D. ITEM PACKING 1 EA. PACK AND FRAME This should be a good quality combination, aluminum and nylon. It should be waterproof, and no less than 3300 cubic inch capacity. (3700 cubic inches or greater is highly advised!) It must have a good quality hip belt (not just straps), and some mechanism for attaching a sleeping bag to it. There needs to be two good padded shoulder straps. The aluminum seams should be welded, and there should be two to four outside pockets on the pack itself. You can option to purchase this item, especially if you plan on staying in Scouting, or it can be rented from Philmont. We suggest you purchase this item if at all possible. You can secure a good quality pack and frame for under $100.00 that will last for many years. You can check with one of the adult advisors before you purchase this item. LOOK FOR SALES ON PACKS! 1 EA. PACK COVER Waterproof nylon or large plastic bags. 6-12 EA. PLASTIC BAGS 6 extra large Zip Lock bags; the rest assorted sizes. A small trashbag or two might be useful also. 1 EA. SLEEPING BAG Must be lightweight (no more than 5 lbs.), easy to wash, yet quality enough to warm you at 30 degrees. It needs to be "stuffable" and fit snugly in a waterproof stuffsack. The stuffsack MUST be backed-up with a good trashbag. STRAPS TO HOLD SLEEPING BAG ON PACK "bungee" cords and strings are not good WEARING OR (PACKED IN PLASTIC BAGS) 1EA. HIKING BOOTS VERY IMPORTANT. You should have these already; if not, buy them now and start wearing them immediately. Price range for these is from $20.00 to $80.00. It is essential that these be sno-sealed . . . TRY PAYLESS OR PICKWAY? 1 PR. TENNIS SHOES (lightweight) 2 PR. HEAVY WOOL SOCKS try THORGUARD backbacking socks, they work! 4-6 PR. COTTON SOCKS make sure these will dry in reasonable quick fashion. Cotton liners or calf length athletic socks. Good condition so that they will stay up. 3 PR. UNDERWEAR (jockey type) | (Instead of these five items | you may wish to have 3 pr. 2 PR. HIKING SHORTS | of lined jogging shorts.) 1 PR. LONG PANTS no sweats, no dungarees (jeans) 1 EA. LONG SLEEVED SHIRT Lightweight flannel or the like. 3 EA. TRAIL T-SHIRTS custom crew t-shirts WILL BE ISSUED 1 EA. SWEATSHIRT custom crew Hooded-Thermal sweatshirt with Pockets WILL BE ISSUED 1 EA. HAT OR CAP flexible, full brim is highly recommended 1 EA. PONCHO Nylon is good, but tends to be expensive. The HIKER LENGTH will keep you dry. Hopefully the Pack Covers will help us keep our packs dry. Experience indicates that price does not always mean quality and staying dry! Check out the "three dollar specials" at the discount house! 1 EA. SLEEPING CLOTHES (worn only in sleeping bag) EATING 1 EA. PLATE or shallow bowl (aluminum or plastic - needs to be small) 1 EA. SPOON Tablespoon, not teaspoon. No need for a fork or a dinnerknife. 1-2 EA. CUP Plastic - 2 messkit size or one deep cup. Metal also useful. 1 EA. Mesh Ditty Bag to hold above items! WILL BE ISSUED 2 EA. WATERBOTTLE 1 QT. capacity preferred. Must fit into top outside pockets of pack. Plastic only . . . transparent! PERSONAL and MISCELLANEOUS 8 EA. TENT PEGS Lightweight steel-wire type. Have some sort of small bag for these. (See leaders for models.) "enough" matches properly protected. 1 EA. POCKETKNIFE (small) 1 EA. NYLON CORD (diameter 1/8 in., and 50 ft. long). ISSUED 1 EA. FLASHLIGHT (very small -- with NEW AA batteries) 2 EA. BANDANNA or HANDKERCHIEF 1 PR. SUNGLASSES 1 EA. PERSONAL BEAR BAG This will hold all of your "smellables" at night in the Crew Bear Bag. TO BE ISSUED 1 EA. Money Bag $30.00 in small bills. 2 EA. TOWELS Need to be old and thin. Dry easily. 1 EA. FACE TOWEL (thin) or 2 wash rags 1 EA. PERSONAL FIRST AID KIT About 25 regular size band aids; 1 pk. of moleskin; any medication you may be taking. 1 EA. NOTE PAD AND PEN 1 EA. TOILET KIT MUST INCLUDE: toothbrush, comb, small soap, lip balm, foot powder. This stuff WILL go in bear bag. 2 EA. Stamped and Addressed postcards. TENT PARTNERS WILL SHARE AND CARRY 1 EA. COMPASS Learn how to read a compass and a map 1 EA. Map (provided) 1 EA. GROUND CLOTH 3 mil Plastic sheeting is ideal. Must be 5x7. 1 EA. ROLL of GOOD Toilet Paper 1 EA. DEODORANT (bear bag item!) NOTE: Philmont provides tents and poles but no pegs (see above)! BUDDY TENTS (4 CAMPERS) WILL SHARE AND CARRY 1 EA. BACKPACKING STOVE Suggest Coleman Peak One. 1 EA. SPUN ALUMINUM FUEL BOTTLE No soldered cans! (and a pour top) 1 EA. SHAMPOO, SUNSCREEN, TOOTH PASTE 1 EA. WHISTLE 1 EA. PLASTIC TROWEL for digging cat holes; moving COLD campfire ashes NOTE: Philmont provides pots for cooking (and food to carry)! and a dining fly OPTIONAL ITEMS camera and film insulated underwear rubberbands belt pack repair items watch foam sleeping pad insect repellent stocking cap Troop 700 -- Dorchester Presbyterian Church Troop 29 -- North Barrington Elementary Philmont 1993 -- Page Five 1. Labeling of Clothing and Equipment -- ALL ITEMS ARE TO BE MARKED WITH YOUR NAME AND CONTINGENT NUMBER AS DESCRIBED: pants, shorts, underwear Back of waist, inside near tag shirts Bottom of inside seam, in back socks Across the top of the arch Towels Top Right-hand corner Cup, Plate, Spoon Not on eating surface! Tent pegs, lighter use your imagination Sleeping bag bottom, outside (also the Stuff sack) Pack top bar of frame Boots Inside near heel Other items Make it instantly obvious The "SHARPIE" by Majik Marker is good for marking -- it is permanent! 2. Recommended contents of carry-on bag (to be issued to you in late June): Camera Changes of underware Books, cards, etc., for Troop T-shirt Changes of socks travel entertainment 3. Travel Uniform: In general, the class-B uniform: Scout Cap, Troop tee-shirt, Scout Shorts and Socks, Hiking boots or SPARE tennis shoes. On certain occasions, the full Scout uniform will be worn: Scout Cap, Scout Shirt, Scout Shorts and Socks, Hiking boots or SPARE tennis shoes. 4. Philmont knowledge: All Philmont participants are expected to know the Philmont Hymn and the Philmont Grace: Philmont Hymn Silver on the sage, starlit skies above, Aspen covered hills, country that I love. Philmont, here's to Thee, Scouting Paradise, Out in God's country -- tonight. Wind in whispering pines, eagles soaring high, Purple mountains rise, against an azure sky. Philmont, here's to Thee, Scouting Paradise, Out in God's country -- tonight. Philmont Grace For food, for raiment, for life, for opportunity, For friendship and fellowship, we thank Thee, O Lord. Amen. Sometime in the Spring of 1993, an information book will be provided by Philmont . . . read it and learn something about the very different terrain we will be visiting . . . 5. Philmont memorabilia can be ordered at a later date -- it is not necessary to buy out the store while we are there. NOTE: The carry-on bag ensures that the Scout will not need to go to his pack for ANYTHING until he gets to his tent in basecamp. By issuing a bag you can help to ensure (1) uniformity but more importantly (2) you have control of the SIZE of whatever the Scout is carrying . . . remember that these things will have to be left in the equipment locker . . . as well as the Class-As and any issue gear you don't take on the trail! * * * (4) Troop 700 -- Dorchester Presbyterian Church Philmont 1993 Crew Number is 706C 29 March 93 1. Enclosed is the itinerary and sketch map for our expedition -- #10. The penciled in numbers are my (crude) estimates of milages. The blurb from the book: "Two layover camps are featured in this rugged itinerary which provide the opportunity to take in extra programs, side hikes, or just plain rest and relaxation. You will also have the opportunity [opportunity means choice? the only trail goes over the top ot the hill] to camp at Philmont's highest camp, Mount Phillips (elevation 11,711). Other programs available are Continental Tie and Lumber Company, mountain livin', black powder rifle, western lore, rock climbing, bouldering and environmental awareness. Your last night will be spent at Tooth Ridge, a camp just a short distance from the Tooth of Time." 2. Some recommendations for implementation: a. Horse riding is scheduled when we arrive at Philmont. Tours depart from Beaubein at 8:00 and 1:00 (see guidebook). I suggest that we target the afternoon of day 5 or the morning of day 6. b. Day 5: We have a "short" hike into Beaubein but a crew will have to go on the Philips Junction (and return) to get food. c. Day 8: Since we are hiking into a dry camp we will want to have the "evening" wet meal on the trail, probably at Clear Creek, and the simple trail meal for supper. This is also the day we go over Mount Phillips. d. Day 10: layover at Cimarroncito . . . a crew will have to go to Ute Gulch for food. e. Day 11: Again we will be hiking into a dry camp so we will want to do dinner early, probably at Clarks Fork. f. Day 11: I would like to move our trail camp back to either Shafer's Pass or even Upper Clark's fork so as to even out the milage on the last two days. 3. Interesting item: I found some 1 quart COLLAPSABLE water bottles at Walmart Saturday. These would not suffice for one's primary water supply but one could have a couple of these for those times one is going into a dry camp or anticipates unduly hot weather. 4. Philmont Participant Guide Book is enclosed . . . please read it, etc. 5. The Philmont medical form is attached, fill it out, see a Physician, and return it to Tom Richardson as soon as possible. 6. The yellow address card also needs to be filled out and returned to Tom Richardson ASAP. * * * (5) Troop 700 -- Dorchester Presbyterian Church Philmont 1993 Contingent Number is 706C Dear Tsianina and Kristine: Your Philmont equipment has some minor differences from the list you have been given. A. Your Class A uniform will be: *1. Kaki colored socks *2. Venture t-shirt 3. Kaki colored shorts (pick the style that fits you best - your shorts DO NOT have to be the Boy Scout shorts). B. Personal items: 1. Tampons are preferable to pads. Unless you finish a period a week or less prior to hiking, plan to carry what you will need. The change in altitude and the strain of hiking could cause your period to be late OR early. For the days you will not be having a period carry enough panty-liners to be able to change once a day. You will be carrying only three pairs of underware (white cotten only) with little to no opportunity to wash them out in a bucket of water. When I went to Philmont in 1989 I was very glad I had thought to take them! 2. Bras - you will be carrying only three (white). Pick a style that will not rub blisters. The place you are most likely to get blisters is from the backpack straps rubbing against the adjusting clip. My three adjust in back, low enough to avoid the pack's shoulder straps and high enough to avoid the pack itself from rubbing. (No underwire bras - the wire will rub blisters. Sports bras, if you can wear them, are good.) C. Additional personal items I also found helpful, include: 1. Massengill Soft Cloth Towelettes (or Summer's Eve Cleansing Cloths). Enough for one a day. 2. Buf-Puf singles with cleanser in each sponge. Enough for one a day. 3. Webcol Alcohol Preps (for washing hands). Enough for three or four a day (these are especially nice when having to make a pit stop on the trail and there is no water available for hand-washing). If you or your mothers have any questions, give Margaret a call. * * * (6) THIS ONE IS FROM EARLY DECEMBER 1988 2. The question has been asked about what is needed for Philmont; presumably Santa has some interest in this operation! A more extensive list will be forth coming. In the meanwhile, three or four items come to mind: a. Full Class-A summer uniform. We WILL be wearing this while we are traveling. We have a neckerchief, the cover is the SCOUT ballcap. For informal purposes the troop t-shirt will be useful. b. A GOOD pair of hiking shoes. c. A pack you can wear and carry your share of the gear. d. A compact but warm sleeping bag. MEMO FOR A PARENTS NIGHT 4. Please plan on attending a gathering of all participants and parents or guardians on the evening of Wednesday, 22 March 1989, at the regular Scout meeting time (7:00 PM at Dorchester Presbyterian Church). 5. Please check your phone number and address (including zip code) in the following roster of participants. Please inform us of any errors or changes. Participants: LIST OF YOUTH PHONE NUMBER AND ADDRESS LIST OF ADULTS FOLLOW-UP TO PARENTS MEETING 5. The following information was provided at the group meeting in late March; it is provided a second time as a convenience! > Packs to Dorchester Church on 12 July . . . > Departure from DORCHESTER CHURCh at 5:00 AM, Sat, 15 Jul 89 Please plan to help transport the Philmont crew to the airport. > Return: Plan to meet the Philmont Crew at the airport to pick up your son. Leaders will also need transportation home! > Flights: Delta #710: Charleston to Atlanta (depart 6:30 AM, Delta #587: Atlanta to Denver Sat, 15 Jul 89) Delta #1644: Denver to Atlanta (arrive 12:30 AM, Delta #1012: Atlanta to Charleston Sat, 29 Jul 89) > Chaffee Transportation: 1-800-426-2466, ext. 210399, ask for either Monica or Jan, refer to "BSA Troop 700, Rev. Zedan's Party" > Philmont: 1-505-376-2281 (emergency use only!) give the Expedition Number: 716-J and your Scout's name and wait for a call back! > Write to us at Philmont: Name of Scout 716-J Philmont Cimarron NM 87714 Mail sent after 22 Jul 89 will arrive after we have come home! 6. PHYSICALS -- these are due to Margaret on or before 21 June 89. This is the Wednesday before Summer Camp at Ho Non Wah so there should be minimal problem getting this service from Dale . . . CHANGE ORDERS! 1. Shakedown date -- CHANGE -- pack shakedown will be at Gnegy Residence on Thursday 6 July 1989 at 7:00 PM. You must attend, it might also be a good idea for your parents to attend also! Have everything you will be carrying on the trail (except food!). You will get these materials back when we get to Philmont. If something is "missing," you will have to get it to Margaret ASAP. The packs will include all personal items as well as the things you and your tent partner will be sharing (this probably should include a roll of GOOD toilet paper). REWRITE OF A LATE HANDOUT At the time of departure, all families were given a sheet containing the roster of participants (addresses and phones), the itinery and contact numbers. We also had one family with a phone answering machine (they were not then as common as they are now) who we would be able to call if necessary and communicate with the rest of the families. ADDITIONAL ITEM If you fly, Denver is the easiest place to get to . . . Colorado Springs and Albuquerque do have airports but these are probably an extra flight connection you will need to arrange. In 1989, we contracted with Chaffee Transit Inc. (132 West First Street, Salida CO 81201) and were very pleased . . . transportation from airport to Philmont and back . . . driver was willing to take us down the US Highway (385?) west of the front range and (same driver) let us stop at the AF Academy for an hour or so on the way back. * * * (7) Transcript of e-mail in late July 1993 From: IN%"CHES@CLEMSON.BITNET" "Ches Martin 803-656-2481" 26-JUL-1993 To: IN%"DICKSONT@Citadel.edu" CC: Subj: Philmont Tom, Thanks for the info on Philmont. I will be carrying my troop next summer. We have 28 registered for the trip. After the jamboree, I will start working on logistics, etc. Can you send me a copy of your travel itenerary and any information that you provided parents? I know it would come in handy as we start planning the trip. Thanks, Ches Martin Scoutmaster Troop 84 2411 Pope Drive Anderson SC 29625-2225 (803) 656-2481 (w) (803) 656-0122 (f) (803) 226-3249 (h) ========= From: CIT::DICKSONT 26-JUL-1993 20:21:18.43 To: IN%"CHES@CLEMSON.BITNET" CC: DICKSONT Subj: RE: Philmont Ches: A quick note before I run off for more vacation! Actually a sandwich, there is a professional meeting in the middle! I will put together a package of things we have used for Philmont, etc, and ask the listowner to archive it . . . anticipate something in early fall . . . In the meanwhile: 28 participants is at least three and perhaps four crews, a nice target is 6 or 7 youth and 3 or 2 adults for a crew size of nine . . . this will get you three food packs (at 4 persons per pack) so you can feed your ranger the first few days and then have the NECESSARY excess food for the hungry crew during the rest of the trip. If you have fewer in a crew, you will have to pay for seven and you will probably HAVE to put the adults into the duty roster just so "we're always on KP" can have a negative answer! Route: From Charleston: US78 to Augusta, I20 to Birmingham, US78 to Memphis, I40 to Amarillo, US 87 to Clayton, and NM?? to Cimarron. Four days: Birmingham/Little Rock/Elk City OK are suitable day targets for POV and BSA regs (with your size crew you could charter a common carrier and dispense with the 10-hour/500 mile POV rule). This route is a few hours shorter than taking I26 to Asheville and picking up I40, etc. For you I would advise I85 to Atlanta, etc. Arrive at Philmont as early as possible, definitely before noon. Late arrivals will get fully processed but it may take through the morning of the day one is to hit the trail so you start "late" The paperwork etc of the Philmont process is a workload for one committee-member equivalent, my wife has done a super job twice (1989 and 1993) but this was her "assignment" for the preceeding year. Don't add these details to a SM or ASM, the time is not there! Her reward both times was the opportunity to hike Philmont! Tom Richardson Assoc Prof Chemistry DICKSONT@CITADEL.BITNET Charleston SC 29409 .edu also works Scoutmaster, Troop 700 Summerville SC 29483 ==== From: IN%"CHES@CLEMSON.BITNET" "Ches Martin 803-656-2481" 27-JUL-1993 To: IN%"DICKSONT@Citadel.edu" CC: Subj: RE: Philmont Thanks Tom. I look forward to your more complete info in the archives. Ches * * * (8) Various aspects of 1993 expedition. In 1989, both my troop and my brother-in-law Dan's troop went to Philmont; we planned it independenty but as the process developed we were able to share some ideas etc. As it worked out we got our first choice, he got his second; they were THE SAME itinery! Unfortunately, his unit left Philmont just hours before we arrived. He did leave a day-by-day notebook for us which was great reading, especially since his trek had had little if any rain and we had more than is normal for the New Mexico mountains. We resolved to try to go together the next time we did it! In summer 1991, at a family reunion after Desert Storm, we decided to try to do Philmont together. The initial plan was to register as a two-crew contingent (his new troop and my troop) and do the same itinery but as A and B crews. Since his daughter and a niece were interested (and of an age, etc) we decided to do this as a Venture activity and my wife would be attached to the crew which had the two female participants. (This was with her full agreement! she was the driving force behind all of this and most definitely the individual who put the preparation time into these events.) As a result, there are two troops etc on the equipment lists. Everything went well until about the time we had to pay the initial deposits. For personal reasons, Dan and his sons separated from their new troop and rejoined their former unit (now a 40 mile commute due to a professional convenience move just before Desert Storm). The old troop already had plans for 1993 so we shrunk to one crew . . . my troop plus Dan and three sons and a daughter and a niece (and her father). Then my (now down to three) Scouts decided to (1) work summer camp, (2) earn money for college, and (3) accompany his father on a Permanent Change of Station (Navy dependent)! We were left with a family crew! Registered with Philmont as out of Coastal Carolina (source of paperwork!) with a tour permit from suburban Chicago (that's where all the youth lived). We abandoned common carrier transportation plans and worked it up for personal vehicle (POV) transportation! The transportation notes in the previous section were those for POV with my Scouts before I "lost" them ... the numbers were small enough that I could do it in a van. Dan was planning train from Chicago to Raton and then the Philmont shuttle. A note on transportation . . . check out the price for a common carrier before deciding on POV. Unless you have a very small contingent, it is generally less expensive (time and effort as well as $). A thought: one advantage to POV is that you have a place store things that are not going on the trail, a place that is perhaps a little bigger than the equipment locker? Operation as a family crew was successful because we held to BSA regs and expectations; there was no "special treatment" because of the family ties. We were a small crew and the adults participated in the duty roster. To answer a question which was left on the net after my trail report. YES, we had fun! we enjoyed it! and we all want to go back, even the two young women.